The Five Corners intersection took center stage at the Martha’s Vineyard Commission this week as public discussion began about potential traffic impacts from the planned Stop & Shop expansion in Vineyard Haven.
The Five Corners intersection took center stage at the Martha’s Vineyard Commission this week as public discussion began about potential traffic impacts from the planned Stop & Shop expansion in Vineyard Haven.
Traffic planners for both the commission and Stop & Shop said the notorious intersection, where five roads converge and few traffic controls are in place beyond driver courtesy, confounds traditional methods for analysis.
The 30,500 square-foot supermarket expansion plan is under review by the MVC as a development of regional impact. A public hearing on the plan continued Thursday night.
Located half a block from the planned grocery expansion site and also the main Steamship Authority terminal in Vineyard Haven, Five Corners sees an influx of traffic when ferries arrive and depart. There is police control at the intersection only when ferries arrive and at times when the Lagoon Pond drawbridge goes up.
Keri Pyke, a traffic engineer who peer reviewed the grocery chain’s traffic studies for the MVC, said another complicating factor is “the unusual courtesy of Island drivers,” as people who do not have stop signs sometimes stop to let others turn. She called this phenomenon “virtually impossible to model.”
The traffic analysis uses data collected during mid-July from morning to late afternoon.
Stop & Shop traffic engineer Randall Hart said the project is expected to generate 144 trips on weekdays during evening peak hours, and 147 trips during the Saturday midday peak hours from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. The proposed project would generate 108 new car trips (49 entering and 59 exiting) on weekdays during evening peak hours, and 110 new vehicle trips (54 entering and 56 exiting) during the Saturday midday peak hours.
Mr. Hart said the project is expected to cause a five per cent increase in traffic volume at Five Corners. Even if the majority of the trips go through Five Corners, he said, the intersection will see less than a seven per cent increase. He described the numbers as very conservative.
Mr. Hart said there would be an impact on traffic from the new store, and it would be minor.
Ms. Pyke expressed concern about the ability of the modeling to predict real-world conditions. “We are still left wondering how we can compare the future conditions and assess the impact of the expanded store on traffic in Five Corners,” she wrote in a Nov. 20 memorandum to the MVC.
Ms. Pyke disagreed with the prediction that 80 per cent of traffic coming from up-Island via State Road will use Main street and Norton Lane to access the store. She said it was more likely that 80 per cent of the traffic would go through Five Corners.
Stop & Shop has proposed mitigation measures, including updating signage and updating and restriping the road on Water street. Other measures include adding a police officer to control traffic at Five Corners and Water street during peak summer hours, encouraging and adding incentives for employees to park off-site, and making pedestrian and landscaping enhancements.
They are also offering to give the town of Tisbury $20,000 for transportation improvements and have offered to work with the town on other transportation issues, including talking with the Vineyard Transportation Authority.
Mr. Hart said truck deliveries to the new store will be similar to the existing delivery schedule, with one tractor trailer arriving at the store each day and 10 to 15 vendor trucks.
Issues around delivery trucks and staging and construction will be addressed at the next public hearing, which is scheduled for Jan. 9.
Commissioners expressed interest in having a police presence for more than one hour during peak traffic periods. Some pointed out that backups often extend to Main street and up to the Edgartown-Vineyard Haven Road intersection.
“Does anyone have a suggestion that would be a quick fix on this traffic situation?” commissioner Clarence A. (Trip) Barnes 3rd asked. “It’s a mess and it’s going to continue to be a mess but we’ve got to have the grocery store straightened out.”
VTA administrator Angela Grant registered concerns about impacts on the regional Islandwide bus system, whose frequent trips in and out of the area operate on a tight schedule. “While there are differing options as to degree of impact, the reality is they are noteworthy,” Mrs. Grant said. She suggested that Stop & Shop purchase annual bus passes for employees, provide financial incentives to take public transportation, and should not allow employees to park on-site. She further suggested that Stop & Shop should begin a home delivery program.
“The detriment is going to be longer trip times, which will mean fewer trips and diminished capacity,” Mrs. Grant said. She said Stop & Shop “should be required to pay for this impact on the Island. They should be required to contribute to the cause.”
Tisbury planning board member Dan Seidman questioned the impact of going from a seven minute queue to a nine minute queue. “Are we all in that much of a hurry that two minutes is life or death?” he asked.
Comments
I am an off-islander, but I
John Somewhere-in-the-Middle, USAI am an off-islander, but I have owned a tiny piece of property on the Vineyard for thirty years and have been visiting for over forty years. I have not changed my property (except for maintenance). I pay whatever taxes are levied, and I am quite content to let the actual residents of the island determine their future. After all, who better to deal with that task than the people who actually live there?
I also think it's great that the island is putting so much of its land and resources into the Land Bank and other conservancies to protect these resources for future generations. But, herein lies the rub.
I believe that siting the new "Super" Stop and Shop where proposed is asking for ever more problems in the five corners area. The footprint of that area would need a totally revamping to achieve any improvement, and even that might not be enough. Since the people of the island seem very reluctant to make significant changes to that area (and I'm with them on that), then the best solution is to find another site, some distance away from the current location.
With Vineyard Haven being THE major portal year-round for the Steamship Authority, perhaps that whole area from five corners to the terminal should be more dedicated to being a transportation hub, with limited commercial activity, perhaps a couple nice coffee shops or restaurants (with vey limited parking)for travelers passing through the portal.
The Stop and Shop should be placed elsewhere, anywhere, in a location that is convenient to islanders (does anybody really think that the current location is convenient?). Of course, such a relocation might mean more traffic going to and from that new location, but Vineyard Haven is being choked to death by the five corners situation. It may be time to re-think the policy of putting some much land aside for the future and making a concession to those living in the present.
I agree 100%, John
DanI agree 100%, John
Pull the store out of VH, and
JoshPull the store out of VH, and pull the other one out of Edgartown. That fixes two of the worst traffic jams on the island.
Combine the stores into a huge Super Stop & Shop up at the Airport Business Park. It can be big, with tons of parking and won't need to worry about its architecture fitting in.
Driving a cab you have a
George Stein EdgartownDriving a cab you have a clearer picture of traffic patterns on a daily and year round basis. That there is only one way out of the terminal area and three entrance points creates more problems than a supermarket. Other than 60/90 days there are no real traffic issues. Pass the soap box around as much as you like. Can we create jobs and give year round people better services and maintain the convience of the exsisting store? Adding parking spots is quite a responsible idea. Restrooms are nice idea too.
Pulling the Stop and Shops
Sara Piazza EdgartownPulling the Stop and Shops from both towns does not decrease the traffic, it increases it. All the cars from Vineyard Haven and Edgartown have to fill the streets to get there, and the in-town dwellers who formerly were able to walk or bike to do their shopping also must now drive. A large part of the traffic jam in Edgartown are the thousands of cars trying to get to South Beach, the only public ocean beach on the island. When they pulled the post office out of Edgartown they put it just far enough so that many in-towners who formerly walked to get there mail have to drive. Anyway, the whole thing is a paradox: eliminating traffic so we can drive to where we're going more easily. Right.
What a great idea that John
Roger Maxwell Windsor Heights, IowaWhat a great idea that John has presented. Move the store to another location on the island. I have been a visitor to the island since 1963. I have never seen such rigid, unbending leadership as I have seen, experienced and read about re: decisions re: Martha's Vineyard future. Perhaps the problems should be turned over to a leadership class in one of Iowa's middle schools for resolution. They could at least produce a workable plan within a few months.
Agreed all the away
Mark Vineyard HavenAgreed all the away
Please, keep police OUT of
Thomas Hodgson wtPlease, keep police OUT of the five corners intersection. A person in the middle of that mess only slows things down, as it introduces an impediment to travel. Why risk the health and safety of an officer, when, as the consultant notes, courteous humans use that intersection?
Please no more signs, either. That will just gum up the works, as people try to simultaneously read signs and to pass through 5 corners.
There are places in the world getting rid of their road signs, and finding out that traffic moves better. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/0331/What-happens-when-…
I haven't seen a cop
jj obI haven't seen a cop directing traffic at 5 corners in couple of years. they have a cop on water street directing traffic off the boat. we need a cop at five corners stopping traffic for a couple of minutes so the boat can unload
In the fourth paragraph,
Rachel MD/VHIn the fourth paragraph, "intersection" is spelled incorrectly. As for Five Corners, I'd sooner drive around the entire island to avoid that intersection in July and August.
I do not quite understand the
Frank BrunelleI do not quite understand the 9 minute - 11 minute 7 minute argument. The length of the queue at over 2,500 feet, yes. Sure, there is a delay in getting into town, but no one has talked about the length of time that the delay actually exists. The queue is generally from about 3:30 to 5:30 from our experience living in the midst of it. That is a two hour period wherein the delays occur. It seems more significant than simply saying how long it takes to get through at one point. Also, measuring it from the entire period would be more meaningful. There are times when the delay is significantly more. The bicycle study that is taking place is focusing on bicycles on one side of Beach Road, the south side where most of the cars pull out. It really needs to be on the south and the north side of Beach Road but the telephone poles need to go underground for this to happen. The town has contacted NSTAR about this but could we have an update please? And finally, the Stop and Shop is not the main culprit. When the new larger capacity ferry was added to the fleet that seemed to make a big difference. Smaller ferries are both able to navigate better in rough weather, and have a smaller impact on traffic. That really, in my opinion, is the elephant in the room.
Time to move the Super Stop
PAULLI D EdgartownTime to move the Super Stop and Shop and the Edgartown store to the Airport - plenty of parking, one store, less environmental impact to both towns
Woo Hoo! Now all of us Up
David FernaldWoo Hoo! Now all of us Up-Islanders never have to come into town! God bless the merchants:)
agree with josh and Rachel.
mary madison , wiagree with josh and Rachel. have spent many a day dodging traffic on 5 corners. stop and shop would be best to move out to the business park. hellish traffic and especially I. summer. main road to hospital. why doesn't anyone car about the dangers of that intersection. neglected to mention the post office their too ( the main one of the island). crazy selfish counsel & stop and shop. it needs a safer approach. oh yes I forgot nothing to be dons until a few folks are killed first!!
Thak you for ur carefully
David FernaldThak you for ur carefully ritten post.
There are by my count THREE
Doug Ulwick Oak BluffsThere are by my count THREE roads in to the Stop and Shop/Steamship Authority stretch and only one way out, namely 5 corners. Time to make Union Street either two way or one way THE OTHER WAY. While you're at it, I think if you remove the car rental building and take part of the Post Office corner, you can replace 4 corners with a roundabout. The new Edgartown Vineyard Haven Road roundabout has solved the backup there. Time for Vineyard Haven to learn from that experience.
It is time for the island to
ron minkin edgartownIt is time for the island to help Tisbury with connector roads,it is an island problem for 40 years unresolved, not a Tisbury problem.. We have a crisis without Stop and Shop expansion.. a mess.,and it is only going to get worse, and to what degree, who knows.My guess is that it will take between two and three minutes extra through that mess. The time has come... Union Street must play a part in this mess... We need a road off beach rd. before five corners for up island traffic.. Most of the crisis at five corner is from the big boats in the season from June 24 to Sept.4... not that many boats a day... enters crisis management... we need a plan to empty the boats, and not all through 5 corners..The connector roads will help from keeping some traffic from entering 5 corners..It takes ten minutes to empty the boats, and it seems like 80% of the traffic leaving the boat is in the right lane going up island...Expansion of Stop and Shop is not an issue--the issue is a 40 year old problem that no one has dealt with... some times it is painful for some to benefit the majority... Traffic experts.. stop the studies..logic please.. too many cars trying to get through too little space at a reasonable period of time.. DO SOMETHING CREATIVE.. Look at every option.. If Stop and Shop moved to the Airport we would still have a crisis at 5 corners...
5
.
In the 70's and 80's two
Michael Anthony Auburn, maIn the 70's and 80's two traffic committees proposed exactly that, including bypass roads to take cars off State Rd coming from up-island and off Edgartown Rd coming from Edgartown. Traffic would head down Skiff Avenue (where my family lived) and Lagoon Pond Rd to a new bypass road near the Artcliff. The town selectmen didn't want to pay for the land takings just to solve the "summer traffic problem". The plans also proposed rebuildinfpg Five Corners including new sidewalks, lanes and (horror!) traffic lights. Nope! Now 30 and 40 years later....and those proposals when there was only a small A&P and only one boat slip. Go figure.
To move the Stop and Shops
E. Barrack Vineyard havenTo move the Stop and Shops to the industrial park may seem to resolve a problem with traffic but will disenfranchise any resident who does not drive and will impact the coherence of the communities involved. There is no advantage long term in shredding the fabric of a community and great difficulty in attenpting to reweave it. Perhaps deepest consideration should be given to completly reconfiguring the interior of the S&S as well as redesigning the exterior traffic patterns in the parking lots meaning mini vehicles in one area and oversized in another, one way in and one way out to minimize impact and retain whatever individual charm each of us finds in the village of Vineyard Haven.
E. Barrack, I agree with your
DRB Vineyard HaveE. Barrack, I agree with your comment !! Finally someone who understands that moving the Stop and Shop would disenfranchise those who do not drive and it will affect in a negative way....the fabric of our town. Many people in VH walk to the store. The ability to walk to shopping is one we should be embracing. Also, the traffic from Stop and Shop does NOT have such a major impact on the traffic at 5 corners...it's the boat traffic that is horrendous. Why don't we look at moving the Ferry Dock somewhere else? The traffic to and from the ferry creates gridlock all day long. I hope this issue of expansion soon gets resolved soon. I for one am tired of all the bickering about any change...good or bad that happens here....
I agree (see above). Moving
Sara Piazza EdgartownI agree (see above). Moving the S&S will actually create more traffic, and yes, the continuing dismantling of our towns is very troubling. If you don't like the traffic, do what I do: drive to the outskirts of the town and walk or bike the rest of the way. There are also specific times of the day during the summer that islanders do their grocery shopping to avoid parking and traffic issues. Try it, it's the bet party in town. Relocating is not the panacea. It's an illusion. A shell game. Again, I point out the absurdity of "eliminating traffic." To what purpose? So the next guy can hop into his car and drive unimpeded - which creates what? Traffic.
Shop at Cronig's.
E. MathisShop at Cronig's.
PEOPLE; WHY IS THIS STILL
flounder bob chilmarkPEOPLE; WHY IS THIS STILL BEING TALKED ABOUT? 1ST. WHY BUILD AT 12-24" ABOVE SEA LEVEL? 2ND. IF YOU DID, WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO PARK, THE LOT NOW FILLS EVERY DAY WITH BOATER'S CARS LEFT TO GO OR BEING PICKED UP BY BOATER'S.'WELL TICKET THEM'-RIGHT-.3RD WITH ALL THE HIGHER GROUND LAND someware...IM SURE WE COULD FIND SOME LAND....
4THLY...WHY- CRONIGS IS FINE...STOP AND DROP IN EDGERTOWNE IS FINE TOO...WHATS NEXT A BIGGER TISBURY POLICE STATION MAYBE POT USE IS COMMING...REMEMBER THE ISLAND LIBS SAY THE OCEANS GROWING AND THE POLES ARE MELTING... RIGHT...STANLEY'S GOT LOBSTERS ON SALE...:)
Just for the sake of argument
Frank BrunelleJust for the sake of argument, supposing it would be acceptable to install a bridge to the mainland, there is a company that is proposing a suspension bridge that pays for itself and more by utilizing various forms of wind, wave and tidal energy. Whether this would be acceptable, whether it would be aesthetic, whether it would work is another question, but it is definitely an interesting idea. http://www.renewableenergypumps.com/
Aside from being an
Frank BrunelleAside from being an interesting idea the previous post is impossible to implement... However, here is another idea that might actually be possible. Where the fish shack and dock are now just northeast of Packer's is town land. This was deeded to the town long ago but no one noticed it. So now it could be a steamship authority point of entry. The problem is that there is no room for boats to dock or parking. And there is the issue of the heavy seas and wave action there in storms. However, it should be possible to build a floating bridge supported on pontoons that harvest wave and tidal action and anchored to the ocean floor to harvest energy and provide a platform for a steamship terminal there. A second terminal in Vineyard Haven supported by alternative energy harvesting platforms that would also act as a breakwater so that vessels in Vineyard Haven harbor as well as coastal properties would be protected from large powerful waves in storms. If this could be done in a way that the energy collected would pay for the structures then the entire harbor entrance could be converted to this type of energy harvesting construction with the result that the present inner harbor which is protected by an insufficient jetty could also be protected, and in the event of hurricanes, a gate could be connected to fully protect Vineyard Haven. This would allow the island to potentially become self sufficient electrically and would also ease traffic congestion as well as create in essence a small island in the middle of Vineyard Haven harbor partially on Vineyard Haven and partially on Oak Bluffs territory. Wind energy could also be provided using VAWT technology instead of the tall blade towers that are so problematical from a visual and noise standpoint. This second terminal would be instead of the 50 million dollar terminal in Woods Hole, and incorporate energy harvesting as well as ease the traffic problems on the Vineyard by splitting up the loading and departures to two locations and utilizing smaller vessels than the Island Home and adding more trips. Accompanied by streamlined vessels that drivers could self navigate on and off the costs of travel could be mitigated as well.
What an interesting concept.
David FernaldWhat an interesting concept. I'm not sure if we as a society have the "energy" to explore interesting concepts thought...
Where the fish shack and dock
Frank BrunelleWhere the fish shack and dock are now just northeast of Packer's is town land. This was deeded to the town long ago but no one noticed it. So now it could be a steamship authority point of entry. The problem is that there is no room for boats to dock or parking. And there is the issue of the heavy seas and wave action there in storms. However, it should be possible to build a floating bridge supported on pontoons that harvest wave and tidal action and anchored to the ocean floor to harvest energy and provide a platform for a steamship terminal there. A second terminal in Vineyard Haven supported by alternative energy harvesting platforms that would also act as a breakwater so that vessels in Vineyard Haven harbor as well as coastal properties would be protected from large powerful waves in storms. If this could be done in a way that the energy collected would pay for the structures then the entire harbor entrance could be converted to this type of energy harvesting construction with the result that the present inner harbor which is protected by an insufficient jetty could also be protected, and in the event of hurricanes, a gate could be connected to fully protect Vineyard Haven. This would allow the island to potentially become self sufficient electrically and would also ease traffic congestion as well as create in essence a small island in the middle of Vineyard Haven harbor partially on Vineyard Haven and partially on Oak Bluffs territory. Wind energy could also be provided using VAWT technology instead of the tall blade towers that are so problematical from a visual and noise standpoint. This second terminal would be instead of the 50 million dollar terminal in Woods Hole, and incorporate energy harvesting as well as ease the traffic problems on the Vineyard by splitting up the loading and departures to two locations and utilizing smaller vessels than the Island Home and adding more trips. Accompanied by streamlined vessels that drivers could self navigate on and off the costs of travel could be mitigated as well.
How about another round-about
Mike Off IslandHow about another round-about as that has worked well elsewhere.....
I've been coming to the
David FernaldI've been coming to the Island for many years. Granted I didn't drive for some of them:) But, the only time I've had issues with 5-points is during the summer. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but Union St used to be two way. People in town didn't like traffic clogging their residential streets and it was changed? This also added more parking:0
Also, if your going to look at traffic problems, why not look at the Look St./Edgartown Rd./ State Road (Main St.) intersection. There are times you can't get to Cronigs along State Rd. given the back-ups. Or you can't get out of Vineyard Haven (backups all the back to 5-points).
But, 5-corners... you could improve that intersection if you lost the Ferry terminal, Stop and Shop, Post Office (they they may go away soon all by themselves), and Cumberland Farms(?). It would also work a lot better if you closed the Black Dog and got rid of the Beach St. Extension (4-corners intersection then). But I assume Tisbury isn't completely insane and they would like to keep a vibrant downtown, so none of those options are very good.
My vote (if I had one) would be to fix the Edgartown Rd/State Rd intersection and put a European style roundabout at 5 corners. I remember driving in the Netherlands and France and being impressed how well a two lane roundabout worked. Alternatively, get a traffic control officer at 5-points during the busy times and let them prioritize the traffic issues.
Btw, as someone who goes Up-Island as soon as possible and comes Down-Island as little as possible, I can say that everyone I know who goes to the Stop & Shop turns on Main St. and comes down the Alley. Going to the Ferry is a different matter.
Frank - how about submitting
Sandi OBFrank - how about submitting an aerial view of your proposal? Including turbines, harvesting platforms, pontoons, floating bridge, anchors going down to the ocean floor, 2nd terminal in Vineyard Haven, jetty, gate protecting Vineyard Haven and streamlined vessels navigated by drivers. Oh! and don't forget the the small Island in the middle of Vineyard Haven harbor.
How about not allowing
Peter Bruce Arlington VAHow about not allowing vehicles to enter Water St. northbound, except for those with vehicle tickets for the ferry? All passenger pickups relocate to Tisbury Park & Ride, increase bus frequency from there. Establish ferry drop-off cutoff times at the lot: the ferry waits for the last bus to leave the lot at 20 minutes before ferry departure time. Enter new Stop & Shop parking directly from State Rd. At least this would get some of the extra vehicles out of the area.
Here are a couple of thoughts
Patty Codding Tisbury, MAHere are a couple of thoughts. First, move the police station to the now empty former fire station area. It would allow police to disperse to important areas faster, the park would be watched better, and it would allow more parking in the town lot. Next, why is it not possible for the Stop and Shop's access to be from State Road? The 5 corner intersection would have less coming into it, and the trucks delivering goods could come directly from the SSA by simple revamping of delivery access plans.
Sound like a good idea, at
David FernaldSound like a good idea, at least part of it. I'm not sure how moving S&S access to State rd would improve anything. But moving the Police, integrating bathrooms in the S&S building and removing the existing bathrooms, should improve parking:)
I'm impressed with all of the
Mit Gold EdgartownI'm impressed with all of the good ideas brought forth in the letters.
The ideas I like the most:
* Move the Police Station to an other location
* Move Stop & Shop to an other location.
* Provide a vehicle pathway into the boat station that has cars come in one way and cars out
an other way. Thus avoiding gridlock.
* Perhaps the area where the Police station and Stop & Shop can be used to help create this
better traffic diagram
Some really thoughtful,
Jeanne Barron West TisburySome really thoughtful, interesting ideas presented here. Definitely using the town owned lot at old Packer building should be considered.
What about allowing cars from the boat to go one way up Union St (which is now the opposite direction) This would relieve traffic at 5 Corners. Unfortunately residents of Church St and Franklin St would understandably be unhappy and inconvenienced by increase in traffic on their streets.
Also, perhaps Steamship should charge more for cars traveling at 'peak' hours. I'm sure many of us would enjoy a discount for traveling 'off' hours.
Another thought would be for
Patty Codding Tisbury, MAAnother thought would be for Stop and Shop to have a small store in it's present location and a larger store in another location out of town. Also, please be sure to take into consideration the timing of the opening of the drawbridge. Many years ago I worked at the hospital and headed home at 5 p.m.. Of course the bridge was up AND a boat came in at the same time, causing a massive traffic jam. 45 minutes later I would finally get past 5 corners. At least the view was beautiful.
Instead of moving the Stop
Ken Esq EdgartownInstead of moving the Stop and Shop....why not just take all of the property along the SSA side of the road (Black Dog, etc.) and then along that side of Beach Rd. MV Times, etc.) and build a special connector/access road to the Ferry?
Moving the store, which isn't a possibility because in the United States we still have some respect for private property rights, wouldn't help. State Road is heavily trafficked all year round and the airport would just make shopping inconvenient for everyone and cause much more car traffic and pollution.
If Five Corners is so horrid that the people of Tisbury aren't going to be allowed to have a clean, nice, affordable supermarket then limit the number of cars per ferry.
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